I might have found a lost town (Tarra/Zara follow-up thread)

Hey, I'm Thazz,

If you haven't seen my last post on the Tarra/Zara mystery, please read it here if you haven't already: link

This title might sound a bit crazy I know, but hear me out please! I need your opinions!

(Also sorry for the new post on this, I figured I wouldn't get much of attention if I had made a follow-up on my original post since it's been like a month, if you want me to move this into a comment though on my original thread, I'll do so. However, I think this should be a new thread anyways, since we are analyzing evidence rather than trying to find it)

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ANYWAYS! Let's get my theory and why I think I possibly found Tarra and/or Zara. I don't like drawing out my forum posts, so I'm just going to show you where I think it is first so you have that for context on what I'm going to show later down the line:


Coords: 18.4881607 -11.3789319

KML: res.cloudinary.com/drbrq1k3e/raw/upload/v1692329099/user_uploads/standard/ex7lcmod3hjes2e0gfdr.kml



I've had these ruins in my KML on medieval Saharan towns for a while before I even started my research on Tarra & Zara. I just happened to stumble upon the ruins while I was surveying/following the dried up river next to it out of boredom. I tried to identify it, but all my leads turned up dry, so I just gave up and left it 'unknown'. If you can find any other identification as to the name or origin of these ruins, please reply!

Nevertheless, let's get into my reasoning as to why this is probably Tarra, I don't like to make you read.

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Reasoning 1: Comparison

OK, this was my first reasoning and the reason I dug deeper into these ruins as being the possible location of Tarra. To begin, these ruins' "architectural style" match up well with other ruins of the same supposed time period (14th-17th century), here's some examples to cross-reference:

Fig 1. "Tarra"


Fig 2. Tinigui/Tinigi [20.7396004 -12.0026458]


Fig 3. Togba (zoomed in due to blurry imagery) [17.390826 10.3551774]


Can you see the resemblance between the ruins? How the buildings are divided into 'E' looking shapes? If that's not enough to convince you, that's fine, it wasn't enough for me either, which is why I give you...

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Reasoning 2: Location

Let's go back to the map I referenced in my last forum post, taken from one of the two sources I found that referenced Tarra, the book The Atlantic World and Virginia, 1550-1624.



Take note of the positions of both Togba and Tinigi, as they are cross-referenced in the image below.


I tried my best to line it up, but the earth is a globe and I don't feel like using Google Maps because I want to put out this post ASAP.

Close though, isn't it? Well, that's only the start because the next section is heavy just to warn you...

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Reasoning 3: Documentation

As I stated previously, I only ever found 2 sources that referenced and/or talked about the mystery of Tarra. Those being The Atlantic World and Virginia, 1550-1624 and The Quest for "Tarra": Toponymy and Geography in Exploring History, the latter having been provided to me by forum user bemerkenswelt (thank you so much by the way that was very kind of you and I appreciated it a lot).

Anyhow, the first part of The Quest for Tarra that hinted in the direction of my theoretical location was this paragraph, suggesting that Tarra could possibly be the town of Tidjikja, only 6 miles north up the river from our location of analysis:

(The text previously talked about how the name Tarra can possibly mean forest, just to give context)

"From the point of view of location (in a forested area in "Moores Countrey") and trade (it could well have been the receptor of the legendary Shinqit-Tishit salt caravan), Tidjikja is a viable possibility. From the point of view of name, it fits both the possibility of tahra, a resting place in the sandy soiled wadi Tidjikja, and ziyarah, the location of the tomb of venerated Almoravid leader Abu Bakr b. Umar."

The text then goes on about how Tarra could also be Togba, but it holds no bearing in this thread. However, the author does go back to Tidjikja when they reference a first-hand account's approximate distance of Tarra from "Bambuk":

"One trail remains to be followed, namely "Tarra's" supposed distance from Hodges' position in Bambuk. To recall, he reported this to be "better yn 300 miles ENE." According to Curtin, whose identification has gone unquestioned to date, "by dead reckoning from modern maps, that would put [Tarra] between Nioro and Jaara (Diara) in Mali. It is possible that ... [it] was actually the present-day Jarra, or else Nara, somewhat further east." In fact, this distance on modern maps takes us well beyond the Nioro-Jara region. By dead reckoning, a radius of 300 miles reaches Tidjikja, the eastern Hodh and Nara, encompassing the Togba region located at some 250-260 miles east-north-east"

The author then questions the measurement of 300 miles, as the sources given talks about how another researcher says that Hodges' texts exaggerated the distance by 2.2x. HOWEVER, the author goes back on himself again, stating how there would be no reason for Hodges to do so. So we're brought back full circle. The author further cites this map which is very helpful:



There's another page after the map which is basically just calculations on the distance, however, it's very inconclusive, and is only there to provide another possible number, not to deny all others. All in all, the author never confirms or denies that 300 miles may be the right distance, so it is not off the table.

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Welp that's about it. I know this is a pretty hefty post, but I want your guys' opinions: yea or nah? I certainly think its a possibility, and if it's confirmed as some other town, hey, that's another name for my map. Thank you for reading. Please comment, even if you don't have anything useful to say. I want to know if I actually reached anyone

Hello @thazz,

Hopefully you're still around. Your finds are great, and this is something I have been looking into for a little while as well. I came to the same conclusions that you have where there are "new" old buildings which you have in figure 2, which is the Oasis of Tanouchert, and "old" old buildings (ancient) like you have in figure 3. The crazy thing is you can find these "ancient cities" all over Mauritania, and even into the eastern part of Mali! The buildings look very similar to what you have there in figure 3, but even more round. At first I thought these might be some sort of modern, but primitive dwellings however this doesn't make much sense because you will find these with no other dwellings/buildings around, and sometimes next to a modern town. Then I thought they may be some sort of paddock, but again I found many examples of modern paddocks and non resemble these sites. I believe these may actually belong to a very ancient people who may even predate the ancient Egyptians. Most of the "cities" are on elevated terrain next to mountains, which I believe makes sense since at one point in time Africa had a large waterway or even it's own sea. Either these were sea side towns/cities or there is far more buried beneath the sands of the Sahara.

The sites range from small village to absolutely gigantic cites. Maybe I'm off base and I'm mistaking these structures for something not ancient, but I don't believe that to be true after seeing the many sites I have documented. In the link are just a small sample of images from what I have found.

imgur.com/a/6C4KPZk

Feb 12, 2024 0:34:32 GMT mauritaniavoyage said:

Hello @thazz,

Hopefully you're still around. Your finds are great, and this is something I have been looking into for a little while as well. I came to the same conclusions that you have where there are "new" old buildings which you have in figure 2, which is the Oasis of Tanouchert, and "old" old buildings (ancient) like you have in figure 3. The crazy thing is you can find these "ancient cities" all over Mauritania, and even into the eastern part of Mali! The buildings look very similar to what you have there in figure 3, but even more round. At first I thought these might be some sort of modern, but primitive dwellings however this doesn't make much sense because you will find these with no other dwellings/buildings around, and sometimes next to a modern town. Then I thought they may be some sort of paddock, but again I found many examples of modern paddocks and non resemble these sites. I believe these may actually belong to a very ancient people who may even predate the ancient Egyptians. Most of the "cities" are on elevated terrain next to mountains, which I believe makes sense since at one point in time Africa had a large waterway or even it's own sea. Either these were sea side towns/cities or there is far more buried beneath the sands of the Sahara.

The sites range from small village to absolutely gigantic cites. Maybe I'm off base and I'm mistaking these structures for something not ancient, but I don't believe that to be true after seeing the many sites I have documented. In the link are just a small sample of images from what I have found.

imgur.com/a/6C4KPZk

I am still around! Glad I checked today. I've honestly had no luck finding ruins in Mauritania outside of this so what you have to show and say is very interesting to me. To add on, figure 2 is older than fig 3, with Togba being a new settlement created by refugees from Tinigui. I don't have much insight on the really old circle-type ancient sites but I'm pretty sure most of the ones you've shown are Neolithic and associated with Dhar Tichitt and its offshoot cultures, I'd use that as a bounce-off point for any further research (if you haven't already).

Mar 4, 2024 19:52:38 GMT thazz said:

Feb 12, 2024 0:34:32 GMT mauritaniavoyage said:

Hello @thazz,

Hopefully you're still around. Your finds are great, and this is something I have been looking into for a little while as well. I came to the same conclusions that you have where there are "new" old buildings which you have in figure 2, which is the Oasis of Tanouchert, and "old" old buildings (ancient) like you have in figure 3. The crazy thing is you can find these "ancient cities" all over Mauritania, and even into the eastern part of Mali! The buildings look very similar to what you have there in figure 3, but even more round. At first I thought these might be some sort of modern, but primitive dwellings however this doesn't make much sense because you will find these with no other dwellings/buildings around, and sometimes next to a modern town. Then I thought they may be some sort of paddock, but again I found many examples of modern paddocks and non resemble these sites. I believe these may actually belong to a very ancient people who may even predate the ancient Egyptians. Most of the "cities" are on elevated terrain next to mountains, which I believe makes sense since at one point in time Africa had a large waterway or even it's own sea. Either these were sea side towns/cities or there is far more buried beneath the sands of the Sahara.

The sites range from small village to absolutely gigantic cites. Maybe I'm off base and I'm mistaking these structures for something not ancient, but I don't believe that to be true after seeing the many sites I have documented. In the link are just a small sample of images from what I have found.

imgur.com/a/6C4KPZk

I am still around! Glad I checked today. I've honestly had no luck finding ruins in Mauritania outside of this so what you have to show and say is very interesting to me. To add on, figure 2 is older than fig 3, with Togba being a new settlement created by refugees from Tinigui. I don't have much insight on the really old circle-type ancient sites but I'm pretty sure most of the ones you've shown are Neolithic and associated with Dhar Tichitt and its offshoot cultures, I'd use that as a bounce-off point for any further research (if you haven't already).

Thazz! Good to see you're still here. Yes I got the figures mixed up in my head. Thank you for the info and guidance. I've done some reading on the Dhar Tichitt since you suggested it. I'm not sure the dating of these people is correct, that or the archeologists/anthropologists have attributed these sites to the wrong people. Looking at a lot of sites it appears this civilization was there pre Sahara desert. 

Picture 1 shows one of these villages covered in sand. This sand most likely got there by a large amount of water movement and not wind. Look at how the village on the higher elevation remains uncovered. Also note what looks like salt deposit from evaporated ocean water to the lower left.

Picture 2 shows a rock slide onto one of these villages from the mountain above in picture 3. 

Picture 4 shows the blue area which is full of villages, towns, and even large cities. The area to the north I have come to call the Middle Mauritania Dead Zone. There is absolutely nothing here outside of modern and old (like 500-1000 year old) cities and towns. Something obviously happened here that absolutely devastated this continent. It doesn't make sense that this civilization just stopped expanding their civilization. Another point is that the cities are more complex and larger the further north you go until you reach the Middle Mauritania Dead Zone. It seems like this civilization started further north then migrated southwards. 

That's just my opinions anyway. I'm putting together a presentation to this effect and I'll post it with the map pins when I'm done.

imgur.com/a/DSftmNZ

Mar 6, 2024 2:02:44 GMT mauritaniavoyage said:

Mar 4, 2024 19:52:38 GMT thazz said:

I am still around! Glad I checked today. I've honestly had no luck finding ruins in Mauritania outside of this so what you have to show and say is very interesting to me. To add on, figure 2 is older than fig 3, with Togba being a new settlement created by refugees from Tinigui. I don't have much insight on the really old circle-type ancient sites but I'm pretty sure most of the ones you've shown are Neolithic and associated with Dhar Tichitt and its offshoot cultures, I'd use that as a bounce-off point for any further research (if you haven't already).

Thazz! Good to see you're still here. Yes I got the figures mixed up in my head. Thank you for the info and guidance. I've done some reading on the Dhar Tichitt since you suggested it. I'm not sure the dating of these people is correct, that or the archeologists/anthropologists have attributed these sites to the wrong people. Looking at a lot of sites it appears this civilization was there pre Sahara desert. 

Picture 1 shows one of these villages covered in sand. This sand most likely got there by a large amount of water movement and not wind. Look at how the village on the higher elevation remains uncovered. Also note what looks like salt deposit from evaporated ocean water to the lower left.

Picture 2 shows a rock slide onto one of these villages from the mountain above in picture 3. 

Picture 4 shows the blue area which is full of villages, towns, and even large cities. The area to the north I have come to call the Middle Mauritania Dead Zone. There is absolutely nothing here outside of modern and old (like 500-1000 year old) cities and towns. Something obviously happened here that absolutely devastated this continent. It doesn't make sense that this civilization just stopped expanding their civilization. Another point is that the cities are more complex and larger the further north you go until you reach the Middle Mauritania Dead Zone. It seems like this civilization started further north then migrated southwards. 

That's just my opinions anyway. I'm putting together a presentation to this effect and I'll post it with the map pins when I'm done.

imgur.com/a/DSftmNZ

I can't give much opinions on Pictures 1 and 2 because I haven't studied aerial topography enough to accurately determine if the sand is indeed a result of water or air movement (same with the rock slide). However, the area you highlighted in blue is directly analogous with the boundaries of Tichitt Culture (picture attached).



As for the dead zone, that entire area seems to be very arid and probably has been for a while. I'm guessing the existence of the Tichitt Culture below the dead zone is probably a result of the ancient boundary of the Sahel. It most likely wasn't as arid as it is now, and thus they were able to make their pastoral society there without problems. Mind you, researchers have dated these peoples to neolithic times, the Sahara had much different borders back then.

What is weird is the existence of similar ruins in the north above the dead zone, as you pointed out in my Middle Draa thread. I honestly would just chalk it up to coincidence. There probably was no big disaster, and the Tichitt Culture could possibly be an offshoot of the ones seen north and maybe vice-versa. I recommend also looking at the other forum thread about tumuli (I'll try to link it once I post this). From what is shown in that thread, it's not uncommon for different regions to have similar customs. The Sahara is definitely not easy to cross, but elements of each culture definitely could have mixed given time. Either way, building shapes usually tend to look similar when stripped down to foundation.

I'm looking forward to seeing what else you have to say. Also should I stop quote-replying? It's starting to look messy idk. I don't want to make this thread hard to follow for future researchers. Nevermind it truncates it!